Transcript·文字實(shí)錄

在中國(guó)每4名已婚婦女中就有1人遭受過(guò)某種形式的家庭暴力，這一數(shù)據(jù)來(lái)自于全國(guó)婦聯(lián)在2011年組織的一項(xiàng)全國(guó)調(diào)查。目前，立法者已經(jīng)進(jìn)入到立項(xiàng)論證的最后階段——評(píng)估中國(guó)是否需要一部專門的反家庭暴力法，以及立法的社會(huì)和法律環(huán)境是否成熟。2011年全國(guó)人大宣布將制定反家庭暴力的法律列入立法工作計(jì)劃，但參與立項(xiàng)論證的一些專家告訴我們，中國(guó)是否需要為此立一部專門法律，這個(gè)問(wèn)題一直存在很多阻力和分歧。

One in four married women in China has experienced some form of domestic violence. That's according to a 2011 national survey by the All-China Women's Federation. Now, lawmakers are entering their last stage of assessing China's need for a law against domestic violence and if the country's social and legal environments are ready for one. The National People's Congress announced in 2011 it would consider introducing legislation on domestic violence, but experts involved in the assessment told us there have always been many obstacles and different views on whether or not China needs such a law.

事實(shí)上，這樣的討論已經(jīng)超過(guò)了十年。但從2011年底以來(lái)，立法的研究和調(diào)查速度明顯加快。在去年10月，全國(guó)人大組織了一個(gè)專家組開展調(diào)研工作，研究制定反家暴立法的可能性。今年年初，專家組完成了評(píng)估報(bào)告并遞交給了全國(guó)人大。在報(bào)告中，專家組指出，中國(guó)有必要就家庭暴力制定一部專門的法律。2012年3月，全國(guó)婦聯(lián)副主席、全國(guó)政協(xié)委員甄硯，呼吁全國(guó)人大加快反家暴法的立法進(jìn)程。

In fact, the discussion has been going on for more than a decade. The research and investigation process, however, has sped up significantly since late 2011. In October, the National People's Congress organized a team of experts to research and investigate the possibility of making a law on domestic violence. Earlier this year, the research team finished its assessment report and handed it over to the National People's Congress. In the report, the team suggests it is necessary for China to pass a specialized law on domestic violence. In March 2012, Zhen Yan, vice-chairwoman of the All-China Women's Federation and a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, called on the National People's Congress to speed up its processes of introducing legislation on domestic violence.

那么目前立法進(jìn)行到了什么程度？我們?cè)谘莶ナ译娫挷稍L了蔣月娥，她是立法過(guò)程中牽頭呼吁的專家之一。

What's happening with the legislation? We called Jiang Yue'e from our studio. She's one of the few leading experts in pushing the legislation process.

馮欣：現(xiàn)在的進(jìn)展怎么樣？

Feng Xin: What's happening with the legislation?

蔣月娥：現(xiàn)在相關(guān)的論證報(bào)告在進(jìn)行修改完善，來(lái)提交人大常委會(huì)討論，常委會(huì)還沒(méi)有正式討論。

Jiang Yue'e: Relevant assessment reports are being edited and improved in order to be submitted to the NPC's Standing Committee for discussion. The Standing Committee hasn't discussed it formally yet.

馮欣：那如果立法要進(jìn)一步往下走，目前需要克服什么樣的阻力呢？

Feng Xin: If the legislation needs to move forward, what obstacles does it have to overcome?

蔣月娥：應(yīng)該說(shuō)全國(guó)人大對(duì)立法這個(gè)問(wèn)題也是高度重視。我認(rèn)為這項(xiàng)工作上升到立法的高度是有一定的難度的，特別是有這樣一種認(rèn)識(shí)，覺(jué)得家庭暴力是家庭的事務(wù)，公權(quán)力怎么來(lái)干預(yù)？

Jiang Yue'e: I must say the NPC pays a great deal of attention to the legislation. However, I think when a project is brought to the level of legislation, difficulties do exist. There is a view that domestic violence is a matter of the family; how can state power come to intervene?

馮欣：可能很多人都有這樣一個(gè)問(wèn)題，家庭暴力是不是真有這么嚴(yán)重，一定要立一部法？這個(gè)您怎么看？

Feng Xin: People might have a question like, is domestic violence really serious that we have to have a specialized law. What's your opinion?

蔣月娥：我個(gè)人認(rèn)為，立法并不是說(shuō)這個(gè)問(wèn)題嚴(yán)重了，我們才立法。因?yàn)榱⒎ㄊ菫榱艘?guī)范人的行為，它有很大的成分是為了預(yù)防、制止，不僅僅是說(shuō)法律的懲治。

Jiang Yue'e: In my own opinion, we make a law not because the problem has turned serious but to regulate people's behaviors. A large part of it is to prevent and stop rather than just to punish.

那么中國(guó)的家庭暴力到底有多嚴(yán)重？

But how serious is domestic violence in China?

報(bào)告顯示，2004到2008年全國(guó)婦聯(lián)平均每年收到4萬(wàn)至5萬(wàn)起家暴投訴。

Various reports show the All-China Women's Federation received between 40,000 and 50,000 domestic complaints each year from 2004 to 2008.

2011年，一項(xiàng)對(duì)中國(guó)婦女社會(huì)地位的調(diào)查顯示，超過(guò)24.7%的已婚婦女曾經(jīng)遭受過(guò)某種形式的家庭暴力，比如身體暴力、性暴力、精神暴力、限制人身自由和經(jīng)濟(jì)控制。5.5%的受訪者明確表示曾經(jīng)遭受過(guò)身體暴力。

A 2011 national survey on women's status shows more than 24.7 percent of married women in China have experienced some form of domestic violence, like physical assault, sexual abuse, mental abuse, physical confinement and economic deprivation. 5.5 percent of respondents reported in explicit terms that they had been physically abused.

馮欣：要立這樣一部反家庭暴力法，現(xiàn)在有哪些立法難點(diǎn)呢？

Feng Xin: If we were to make a law on domestic violence, what would be some of the difficulties?

林建軍：應(yīng)該說(shuō)，是不是立專門的防治家庭暴力的法律，本身現(xiàn)在就存在分歧。一部分人認(rèn)為修改現(xiàn)行的法律就可以了，當(dāng)然還有相當(dāng)一部分人認(rèn)為應(yīng)當(dāng)制定專門的防治家庭暴力的法律。所以說(shuō)，是專門立法還是修法，存在分歧，這本身就是一個(gè)難點(diǎn)。

Lin Jianjun: I'd say the question – whether or not we need a specialized law on domestic violence – itself is a difficult matter. Some people think we only need to amend our current laws, but of course there are a considerable number of people who think we should make a specialized law. So the disagreement itself is a difficulty in the legislation process.

馮欣：那您怎么看呢？您的意見是什么？

Feng Xin: Then what do you think?

林建軍：我個(gè)人更傾向于制定專門的家庭暴力防治法，這個(gè)法的功能定位不僅僅局限于事后制裁，還要涉及到事先預(yù)防，而且也不僅僅局限于對(duì)施暴人的制裁，還要涉及到對(duì)受害人的救濟(jì)和保護(hù)。所以說(shuō)所有這些功能很難在一部私法或者公法中涵蓋在內(nèi)，它應(yīng)當(dāng)是一個(gè)綜合性的社會(huì)法。

Lin Jianjun: I'm more in favor of a specialized law on domestic violence. The function of the law shouldn't be limited to punishment after violence. It should also involve prevention of violence. The law should also not be limited to the punishment of the perpetrator but also the rescue and protection of the victim. It's very hard for a private law or public law to include all these functions. It should be a comprehensive, social law.

就立法而言，中國(guó)共有29個(gè)省和自治區(qū)出臺(tái)了地方性的反家庭暴力法規(guī)或條例，但是國(guó)家級(jí)的專門立法還是空白。

Legislatively, 29 Chinese provinces and special administrative regions have passed local administrative laws and regulations on domestic violence, but a specialized national law does not exist.

在世界范圍內(nèi)，超過(guò)80個(gè)國(guó)家和地區(qū)有專門針對(duì)家暴的立法。

Worldwide, more than 80 countries and regions have passed laws on domestic violence.

2009年，香港特別行政區(qū)通過(guò)了《家庭及同居關(guān)系暴力條例》，當(dāng)時(shí)香港的立法者都經(jīng)歷過(guò)哪些爭(zhēng)論？有哪些問(wèn)題大陸也有可能遇到？

In 2009 the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region passed its Domestic and Cohabitation Relationship Violence Ordinance. What were some of the issues Hong Kong lawmakers debated? What legislative questions is the Chinese mainland likely to encounter?

我們采訪了陳婉嫻，她曾是香港立法會(huì)的議員，并參與了香港反家暴法的立法過(guò)程。

We talked to Chan Yuen-han, who took part in Hong Kong's legislation process while she was a member of the region's legislative council.

馮欣：陳議員，在警方處理家庭暴力案件的時(shí)候，警方一般會(huì)遇到什么困難呢？

Feng Xin: Councilor Chan, when police officers deal with domestic violence what problems do they often encounter?

陳婉嫻：當(dāng)然求證是最大的困難。幾件很大的案件，當(dāng)被打的人曾經(jīng)多次到警察局要求處理，但是警方?jīng)]有跟進(jìn)調(diào)查，后來(lái)產(chǎn)生（更多毆打），最后死亡。引起很多人很大的意見，對(duì)警方也有很多的批評(píng)，就嘗試去立法。

Chan Yuen-han: Finding evidence is the biggest difficulty. There were several major cases where the victim reported to the police many times, but the police didn't follow up. This then led to more beating. The victim eventually died. Such cases brought about a lot of public criticism. People then tried to make legislation.

馮欣：這個(gè)條例建立的過(guò)程是怎么樣的？

Feng Xin: How did the legislation process go?

陳婉嫻：首先在立法會(huì)，有一個(gè)審議的過(guò)程。當(dāng)時(shí)我還是立法會(huì)的議員，在立法過(guò)程中，我們有不少的公聽會(huì)。不同的人來(lái)提意見，我也參與在內(nèi)，當(dāng)時(shí)的討論是很廣泛的。

Chan Yuen-han: First, in the legislative council there was a public hearing process. I was a member of the council at the time. During the process, we had quite a lot of public hearings. Many people came to express their opinions, as I did. The discussion was quite comprehensive.

馮欣：那當(dāng)時(shí)討論的都是什么話題呢？

Feng Xin: What topics were being discussed?

陳婉嫻：首先是政府最初不愿意將家庭里面（發(fā)生的）夫妻毆打列入法律的保障里。后來(lái)我們無(wú)數(shù)（次地）爭(zhēng)取很多年，政府同意要立法。在這個(gè)過(guò)程當(dāng)中，有兩個(gè)很大的爭(zhēng)執(zhí)，就是婚姻的定義在哪里。婚姻可以以異性為主的還是同性也行的嗎？這個(gè)是一個(gè)很大的爭(zhēng)議。另外一個(gè)爭(zhēng)議就是有關(guān)保障的范圍，父母、老人家也是否包括在里面嗎？?jī)和矐?yīng)該包括在里面吧？這也是很大的爭(zhēng)議。我覺(jué)得在傳統(tǒng)的中國(guó)人里面，一般是家丑不出屋門，你要沖破這個(gè)傳統(tǒng)的概念是很重要的一步。我認(rèn)為任何家里總有事情發(fā)生，在華人的社會(huì)，要同意我們的觀點(diǎn)是難的。所以當(dāng)我在全國(guó)婦聯(lián)里面知道有一批先行者也想推這個(gè)法，我說(shuō)，“好”，正視社會(huì)的問(wèn)題。這個(gè)問(wèn)題就是如何解決家里不能處理的問(wèn)題，起碼我立個(gè)法，去影響任何準(zhǔn)備施暴的人士，（給他們）一個(gè)警戒，讓他們不能亂來(lái)。

Chan Yuen-han: At first, the government didn't want to make a law to cover couples' fights in their own homes. After we strived to create legislation for many years, the government eventually agreed. During the process, there were two main arguments. What's the definition of marriage? Does it have to be between two people of the opposite sex? Or can it be between people of the same sex? This was a big argument. Another was about the scope of the law. Are parents and the elderly included in the law? Or maybe children should be included, as well. This was also a main argument. I think in traditional Chinese culture, people don't wash their dirty laundry in public. It's important to break up the traditional concept. I believe any family can have issues. It is hard to gain support in Chinese societies, so when I heard in the All-China Women's Federation there are a group of predecessors who also want to push for the law, I said, "Great". They are facing a social issue. That issue is how to solve problems that cannot be solved behind closed doors. If we have legislation it can at least warn those who are about to commit violence and make them to step back.

馮欣：那法律在這個(gè)過(guò)程中起到什么作用？

Feng Xin: So what role do you think the law is playing?

陳婉嫻：教育，很重要。今天經(jīng)常還是有很多團(tuán)體邀請(qǐng)我去聽他們的困難，我覺(jué)得起碼多很多人認(rèn)識(shí)這個(gè)問(wèn)題。以前，這就是小事嘛，丈夫打妻子是沒(méi)問(wèn)題的，打老人家更不是問(wèn)題，以前是這樣的，但是現(xiàn)在不是，起碼在教育上引導(dǎo)大家去認(rèn)識(shí)，我覺(jué)得這個(gè)很重要的。

Chan Yuen-han: Education. It's very important. Today many groups still invite me to listen to their members discuss their experiences. I think at least there are more people who are aware of the issue. (Domestic violence) was just a small matter. It was OK for husbands to beat their wives. It was also OK for wives to beat their husbands –not to mention beating elderly people at home. It used to be like this, but it's no longer the case. At least in terms of education, I think (the law) is very important.

陳婉嫻談到了幾個(gè)香港立法者和居民當(dāng)時(shí)需要討論的問(wèn)題，比如家庭暴力的定義以及取證的難度。那么大陸應(yīng)該如何來(lái)解決這些問(wèn)題呢？我們會(huì)在下期解析這些問(wèn)題。

Chan Yuen-han mentioned several questions Hong Kong lawmakers and residents had to think about when drafting their legislation on domestic violence, for example, the concept of domestic violence itself and the difficulty in proving it. How will or should the Chinese mainland address these questions? We will look into them in our next episode.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中國(guó)預(yù)算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中國(guó)的預(yù)算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大學(xué)生就業(yè)難，難在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 為什么我們經(jīng)常聽到畢業(yè)生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工難，難在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人單位的“招工難”？又是什么讓求職者難以找到這些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中國(guó)有沒(méi)有足夠的養(yǎng)老錢？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我們到底能領(lǐng)多少錢？到什么年齡應(yīng)該計(jì)劃養(yǎng)老問(wèn)題？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中國(guó)人是否應(yīng)該晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力資源和社會(huì)保障部提出，未來(lái)會(huì)逐步將退休年齡推遲五年。這樣做有什么深層的社會(huì)原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外國(guó)人：中國(guó)成為機(jī)會(huì)之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外國(guó)人日益增多，是否意味著中國(guó)成為機(jī)會(huì)的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探討“家庭暴力”這個(gè)概念的本身和取證的困難。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法：難點(diǎn)

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中國(guó)》探討中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法進(jìn)程中長(zhǎng)期存在的阻力和分歧。